Explanation:
Discussion
Is it too simplistic to suggest that we simply say that the individual was born in Kinshasa, or Kiev, or London, and let the reader who is interested in further detail or uncertain as to where it is follow the link? Kevin McE (talk) 21:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Nationality is a quite important trait, so I wouldn't like it left out of a bio's introduction. пﮟოьεԻ 57 21:41, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
We can introduce "citizenship"("nationality") in the infobox and then remove country of birth at all in controversial cases. I would support that. Jhony 22:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't agree with that. The only people making it a controversial issue are POV pushers who want to rewrite history. If someone was born in Baku in 1960, they were born in the Soviet Union, like it or not. Likewise, someone born in Bulawayo in 1955 was born in Southern Rhodesia. пﮟოьεԻ 57 23:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
With regard to countries that were former Soviet Republics, why not just (for example) born in Riga, Latvia where Latvia is a wikilink to Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic as that would then cover all those interested to find out the historical context of the players country of birth as it would lead them to the specific Soviet Republic, and as has been said Latvia and all the other countries within the Soviet Union did not cease to exist.♦Tangerines♦·Talk 00:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
To Number57: I just have tried to assume good faith. Surely I will support wording like Riga, Soviet Union too. Jhony 00:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Piping as in [[Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic|Latvia]] is by far the best solution. AnteaterZot (talk) 00:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I've just noticed that articles about American footballers have the following conventions for country of birth: cityofbirth = [[City name]], [[State name]] | countryofbirth = [[United States]]. For example, North Brunswick, NJ, U.S. (Tim Howard). So shouldn't we stick to Riga, Latvia, USSR? Jhony 02:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
That's the one, AnteaterZot, "piping" is what I meant (sorry I did't know the term), that though would surely cover everything as it shows they were born in the Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic and anyone who wishes to check further can do so.♦Tangerines♦·Talk 04:09, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Firstly I would say this just illustrates the reasons why infoboxes should be kept to a minimum - they always encourage inaccurate oversimplification. In text one can say "Riga, Latvia (then part of the Soviet Union..." or some such formula. Secondly, before drafting new rules, the complexities of pre-national periods need to be considered. Germany and Italy were not states until the late 1800s. Other countries, like Lorraine and Flanders were nations and states but stopped being so hundreds of years ago. Johnbod (talk) 16:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree. Wales, Scotland and England ceased to exist as independent states long ago, but in the context of sport they continue to be noted as "country of birth". The histories of all countries are too varied and complex to enable some general "one-size-fits-all" rule. We must look at each on a case by case basis. Martintg (talk) 19:06, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Digression on status of Soviet Union started here - moved to own section below Johnbod (talk)
we should also not necessarily make general rules based on the particular situation of the baltic republics, any more than on the basis of PRC and Taiwan. There should be some way of handling this on a basis that does not involve resolving the political status of the area at the time. When we need simple wording as in an infobox, I think the best rule in general for contemporary figures is to use the nationality they ascribe to themselves, and to historical figures, the nationality used at the time they were active, and explain more fully in the text. The main principal is not to waste time in reverting established articles. DGG (talk) 03:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
We must take particular care where the place has changed names and/or hands since the birth. Trajan is a bit of an extreme, but take George Habash, rightfully describing his place of birth as Lydda, British Mandate of Palestine, rather than Lod, Israel; there have been lots of places where borders have shifted, states coalesced or collapsed, but we should record the state of affairs at the time of the event (here a birth), so Jesus was born in Judea, not in the West Bank; Imanuel Kant born at Königsberg, Kingdom of Prussia, not Kaliningrad, Russian Federation, etc. I think due to piped links, if anyone really followed to find out about the city where someone was from, they'd realize that the long dead would hardly recognize the place. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 07:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
